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Monday, September 14, 2009

Is experience a valid (or even necessary) means of verifying the content of Scripture?

 
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Is it reasonable to place scripture under our own empirical standards? What is the proper relationship between human experience and God’s word? Does one trump the other? What role does personal experience have in our own Christian growth and maturity?


Consider the following passages of scripture:

John 14:6-11
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. [1] From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
  
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

Phillip openly asked Jesus that he would reveal the glory of God the Father. Such an experience would not have been impossible, for Moses had a limited experience of God’s glory (Exodus 33:18) and Isaiah saw the glory of God within the sanctuary of the temple (Isaiah 6). Yet Jesus goes further to assert that those who see Him see God; he makes an open claim towards deity. Hence, when Phillip asks Jesus to reveal the Father, no doubt Jesus is exasperated. “Isn’t it enough for you, Phillip, that after three years of being with me, of sitting under my teaching as well as preaching it to others, you still ask for more?”
   To Phillip, mere words were not enough. He wanted something that would entertain his senses and imagination. Yet instead Jesus admonishes him, bringing into question whether or not he really understood what Jesus was trying to impart.

John 20:24-31
24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, [1] was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
  
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
   30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

   It is one week after Easter. Among the apostles, there are testimonies of having seen the resurrected Christ. Yet Thomas’ response is essentially “seeing is believing.” It’s not enough that he merely hear the others’ testimonies. It’s not enough that Jesus himself said that he would die only to rise again. He wants something hands-on that he can prod, poke and probe. Now Jesus does give him the satisfaction of his skepticism that causes him to drop on his knees in worship. Yet Jesus rebukes him. Why? Because Thomas found it easier to walk by sight rather than faith. As a result, he couldn’t bring himself to take Jesus’ own words as being trustworthy.
   It is interesting that John would also include a footnote to the incident in v30-31. John admits that he intentionally omitted a great deal of detail with regards to Jesus’ life and ministry, specifically signs and miracles. Why was this? Would it not have  brought a greater sense of wonder to who Jesus is? The fact that John left it out gives the simple answer of “No.” Such details were simply unnecessary for the Holy Spirit to inspire into writing. When Jesus said
Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”, he is taking us, those who two thousand years later have only heard about Jesus via the Bible without seeing him face to face, and putting us on the same level with those that did.


2 Corinthians 12:1-10
I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. Though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.
  
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, [1] a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.  
  
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Although Paul speaks in the third person in v3-6, v7 qualifies that Paul was actually referring to himself. The revelations he speaks of were not so much the inspiration of scripture, but rather face to face encounters with phenomena that were simply beyond the realm of normal human understanding, let alone his own e.g., journeys to heaven, at least four personal encounters with Jesus in addition to thinks that Paul was forbidden to speak of. We can only guess what Paul saw, but whatever it was it was definitely beyond what was the norm. No doubt such experiences would give Paul every reason to excitedly testify, but instead he is first told by God to stay silent about it, plus he has “a thorn in the flesh” (what this specifically is is unclear; some assume it to be a physical handicap a’la Jacob, a psychological disorder; though given that Paul attributes the “Thorn” to being of Satan, we can assume that the Thorn may have had a spiritual origin) that was so painful to endure that he begged at least three times that it be removed, to which God replied “My Grace is Sufficient.”

   Paul’s Christian walk was far from “a form of godliness lacking in power” (2 Timothy 3:5), but even so, 2 Corinthians 12 begs a very important question: if it is indeed the norm for Christians led by the Spirit to have deep and extraordinary encounters with the divine that reveal more and more of God progressively as one moves from “glory to Glory” (2 Corinthians 3:18), why then, was Paul held back? Paul was certainly self-conscious of the fact that his walk with God was far from being perfected (cf. Romans 7:21-25, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Philippians 3:12-15). Surely such encounters would leave him overwhelmed with conviction as to who God really is. Yet this was not so. On what grounds is there for God to label Paul’s thorn as being a means of grace that would mould Paul’s character?
   It is only reasonable to say that such experiences were not to be the focal point of Paul’s Christian walk nor the message that would be at the center of his apostolic ministry. Instead the focus was to be on that which could be known even if one did not experience it.


Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. [1] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.   
  
24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
 
27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers [2]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
  

What was the rich man’s sin that resulted in damnation? The rich man wears purple and fine linen. Purple is the biblical color for royalty (Esther 8:15). Fine linen represents righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The tabernacle, where God’s glory was said to present, had ten curtains of purple linen (Exodus 26:1). Who is this man who wears a uniform representing royalty and divine righteousness? If we take this verse as an account of what killed poor Lazarus i.e., Lazarus as a poor man with a skin disease (leprosy?) that eventually kills him as a result of a lack care on the part of someone with the spiritual authority to tend to him, we can easily say that this righteous royal was one of the Pharisees. Yet Jesus went on to describe the afterlife of these two men. The rich man was damned for his apathy while Lazarus was brought into heaven to stand at Abraham’s side.

   Again, who is this rich man supposedly of righteousness and royalty? And what exactly does he represent? If in this tale he is not just a Pharisee, who is he and what does he have to do with us? The key lies in 1 Peter 2:9 where we get a description of how God sees his church: “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” Jesus was in fact, speaking about what would be his own royal priesthood: his church. Whereas the Good Samaritan was able to treat an innocent, helpless man despite being a foreigner and a stranger, here we have the same scenario only that the one God himself has anointed to actually do the same job merely walks past and couldn’t care less.

   Knowing his eternal predicament (v24-26), the rich man asks that Lazarus be resurrected as a testimony – that is, a miraculous sign – that will convince his household and relatives to repent so that they may reside with Abraham in heaven. To which Abraham replies “They have Moses and the Prophets”. Who or what is Moses and the Prophets? Moses delivered the Law, which explains in specific details the standard of God’s holiness in such a way that it brings conviction of sin (cf. Rom 3:19-20, 7:7-25) and reveals the need for a savior, since “before faith came, we were held captive under the Law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the Law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.” The prophetic writings reveal the heart and character of God as well as how he will accomplish his goal of redemption. This is what Abraham is saying: miracles and signs and wonders alone will not lead people to the savior. Why? Because if the dead were to be immediately brought back to life and they were to call everyone to respond, the underlying motive will be one of self-centered fear. They’re only interested in their own necks. You don’t need to be born again of the spirit in order to be shocked into responding with wordly sorrow. Miracles in of themselves have neither the power to transform nor the authority to convict. It is only by preaching from “Moses and the Prophets” that the right heart-motives will arise in a non-believer that will result in genuine repentance.


    

2 Peter 1:16-21
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, [1] with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
  
19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

It is also interesting to note how Peter regarded scripture; he saw the manifest glory of the Son of God with his own eyes, yet even so, he held God's inspired word as being more trustworthy than his own subjective experience. You can have an experience where you see Jesus face to face in all of his glory and splendor that will leave you amazed and dumbstruck, but even so, Peter claims that the Scriptures will always be more certain when it comes to explaining the things of God.

   By saying that "no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation", he immediately shoots down any idea of bias within the scriptures on the part of the author. How much of the scriptures are the result of the author’s own personal views, opinions, experiences or emotions? Not a single jot, says Peter, for every single word – even when someone like David would write the Psalms out of anguish and depression – came forth from the inspiration of God.
   As such, we are to treat the Bible as being objective in nature, hence we are to interpret the Bible on the basis of what the Bible alone says rather than trying to seek our own personal interpretation (e.g., “This is what I feel God is saying to me. What does this passage say to you?”)

   Peter’s explanation of the Bible’s inspiration and it’s resulting superiority over human experience also has dire consequences when explaining the relationship between divine sovereignty and man’s concept of “free will.”
   Do you believe in the inspiration, infallibility of Scripture; that the Bible you hold in your hands represents God's spoken revelation and hence it is without error or contradiction?
   Where did the Bible come from?
   Whose thinking does it reflect? God's or Man's?

   Does it live up to its own claims?

   Has Scripture been protected through the centuries from human tampering?

   If the Bible in it's original manuscripts were written over an estimated period between 1500 years (1400BC? to 100AD?), what has prevented the text from being changed or altered in any way by man's carelessness or ill motives?
   If you adhere to the former, then there is a logical fallacy within your theology. If man's relationship with God is indeed fully conditional on the part of free will, and hence man at any time could fall into sin and thus lose his salvation altogether, why should we trust the inspiration of the Bible when in fact it's authors could have at any time simply lost their standing before God? Would not such a possibility open the door for the probability of the Bible not being fully inspired and inerrant? Moses was a political fugitive. David was an adulterous tyrant. Peter was a double-minded coward. Paul was an overzealous murderer. If one were to look at the Bible on a purely ad hominem basis centered around the flaws of its authors, you would have every reason not to trust it’s claims to authority. But instead never once do we ever see any of the authors of scripture making even the slightest suggestion that the writings of another may be flawed.

   If the Arminian view of free will is correct, how can we say that the inspiration of scripture was genuinely safeguarded from human error unless God himself intervened in the thought processes of men?

   On the other hand, if the above were not the case and scripture was written by people who had attained sinless perfection without God needing to directly intervene in their thinking, 2 Peter 1:20-21 would have to be wrong, thus making the Bible contradictory and containing error.

   In conclusion, the best scriptural proof against arminian theology is simply the revelation, inspiration, infallibility and inerrancy of scripture in of itself as it is a perfect representation between the relationship between God and Man. There is simply no logical reason for the arminian to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy.


John 1:1-9
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, [1] and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
  
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
  
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, [2] and his own people [3] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
  
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

   The greek word for “Word” that John uses in John 1 is of course logos, however John’s use as well as the actual meaning of the word is more than just mere verbatim. Within the context of greek thinking, Logos is the “first cause”, it is the originating point from which all existence – logic, reality, knowledge, existence. All manner of creation comes from the logos.
   John’s use of logos has purposes:
1. He explains the creation account in a manner that the gentile reader versed in the greek worldview will understand
2. He presents the God of the Christians as being vastly superior to the God of the greeks and Romans in the sense that while the latter were merely supernatural beings vastly superior to humans, the Christian God is the actual creator of the cosmos.
3. Creates a clear basis for the gospel being logical in nature and presupposition i.e., “In the beginning was logic, and the logic was with God, for the logic is God. And the logic became flesh.”

   With this is mind, one must acknowledge Logos/Logic/Revelation to be an essential attribute of God. Logos/Logic/Revelation could not have come before God, as that would mean God would be subject to a Law higher than himself. At the same, Logos/Logic/Revelation could not have existed after God as a created entity, because if such were the case, it would be impossible for God and man to communicate in such a way that anything that God spoke would only be confined to the analogous (e.g., if the Logos-less God were to say “I love You”, he would have to create the revelation rather than having it spring forth from his own mouth). Any concept of God that is not qualified by an axiom that presupposes an absolute, objective revelation can only be expected to conclude in agnosticism – an essential belief in the possibility of a God, yet an open lack of believe in specific personal attributes and character.
   It is also wrong to suggest that certain “truths” are stronger than others (e.g., the seeming contrast between God’s justice vs God’s mercy). Logos/Logic/Revelation, being an attribute of God, must therefore be singular, not plural, therefore there can only be one “truth.” If Logos/Logic/Revelation was either progressive or transitional, this would mean that the nature and character of God is subject to change. If such is the case, “God” ceases to be God.
   
   Using the Logos/Logic/Revelation of God as the foundation for the worldview he is to present in his account of the gospel, John throws down the gauntlet at any other means by which man may wish to seek and comprehend knowledge.
   Empiricism
is the theory that we learn by experience. At first this seems quite a reasonable means of acquiring knowledge on the basis that we can treat experience as a tangible entity with which we can experiment on. However, it does have several flaws.
   First of all, experience is subjective. Let us start with the red of a rose and the blue of a violet. First, a description of sensation will show that it does not give knowledge so readily as common sense imagines. Not everybody sees roses as red and violets as blue. There are some people who we say are color blind, and there are degrees of color blindness. It is difficult to tell what is color blindness and what are color illusions. The real color is very hard to settle upon. The condition of the eye, a disease, temporary sickness, a headache or extreme sensitivity to light can change our color sensations. Ergo, you cannot derive objective knowledge from sensory perceptions on their own.
   Secondly, empiricism cannot produce norms of any kind. It cannot produce moral and religious norms because at the very best, empiricism can only give a report of what is. Experiences cannot teach you what ought to be because you cannot get an ought out of an is. For example, if I were to point at the sky and ask “What color is the sky?”
   “Blue.”
   “What is ‘blue’?” Can you, using experience on it’s own as the basis, explain what ‘blue’ is?
   Of course not. 
   Given the obvious inadequacies of experience alone, why would one want to use it as a standard of evaluation for the Bible, especially given that Scripture makes claims that go far beyond the limits of sensory perception?
   There are no doubt those who will try to say “You can study the Bible all you want, but until you experience God personally, you will never really know him.” To the contrary however, it is by the Bible that God is defined and as we have seen the Bible itself claims the direct opposite: Scripture Alone trumps experience.




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 Posted 9/14/2009 1:45 PM - 44 Views - 4 eProps - 6 comments

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Scripture may trump experience however, what makes scriptures come alive in our lives, is when we are walking in it and experience the grace, power, love and truth of God in our lives - liberty!  Knowledge without understanding is empty.  Knowledge without experience is also empty.
Posted 9/18/2009 7:56 PM by Mochadelight - reply

This is an old argument, and the logic is flawed. Firstly because we are trying to fit something that Scripture calls "illumination" into a logic based model. What is enlightenment, illumination or insight? Can you define those without experience coming into play? If not, then can you claim them with relation to the reading of Scripture? If you cannot, you would simply be a "natural" man - the man of 1 Corinthians 1-2. Why did you not utilize this passage in the debate? It seems that this would have crossed your mind at some point. What about Hebrews 6 and the definition of the person who has experienced the truth? The presence of the Holy Spirit in us dictates that there are deep things that we will never understand with our minds, even if stated clearly in Scripture. That is why we need the mind of Christ, to be transformed through the renewing of our minds rather than the honing of our personal skills of deduction.

Experience alone is neither good nor bad. If you see a car accident, is that a bad thing? Well, it's not nice...but the experience alone is separate from the actual event. So to say that experience somehow "trumps" Scripture is a false dichotomy. Can Scripture be understood without experience? Again we are back to the Natural Man of 1 Corinthians to whom the things of the Spirit are foolishness. It is not that this person is somehow less intelligent, but they do not have the tools to interpret experience NOR Scripture. So, it is neither experience nor Scripture that are actually our connection to the truth, it is the Holy Spirit that renews, convicts, counsels, guides, reproves, etc. Scripture alone (the words without the Spirit) does not save and does not inspire, convict, or illumine. The Holy Spirit does that first in the unbeliever to cause conviction, but also in the believer to confirm truth and expose error of interpretation. Experiences do not dictate our understanding of life or Scripture alone, but experience ALONG WITH the leading of the Holy Spirit confirms truth or exposes error.

Don't set these up as "either/or" type ides - experience and Scripture - Jesus never did. He said things like "you have heard it said, but I say to you" or "you have believed in the Father, now Believe in me" - which are directly linked to the experience of seeing, knowing and following Jesus. Jesus calls us to come and follow Him, but never does He say that experience denies this call - it is within our experiences that Jesus creates a context for Himself as Way, Truth and Life. It is through experiences that we seek to connect the truth of Christ and the full testimony of Scripture to people who are trying, without the Spirit in them, to discern what is actually true. And it is because of a true experience of God's power in us to forgive sin, make us new creations, fill us with His Spirit, etc. that we are able to say that we have true faith and hope in Christ. If all your experiences of God's love were removed you may remain faithful to Scripture...but God never calls us to follow Him in a vacuum...we are to taste and see that He is good, ask, seek and knock - these seem to indicate very clearly that He alone wants to confirm all Truth experientially to we who already have faith.
Posted 9/19/2009 3:57 AM by bobbybob - reply

Logic is God.

Not a fair interpretation of the text I would say, and not a phrase many would want on their lips. It is logical that a strong man would kill a weaker man who was threatening his survival. That is logical. That is not God. God is Love. He has revealed Himself thus, and not as "logic" - I must believe that He has good reasons for that. I may also believe, logically, that if you are not God and you are presenting an argument that has little linguistic basis in 1st century Greek that you may be losing sight of a very important goal - to present His truth, not yours.
Posted 9/19/2009 4:05 AM by bobbybob - reply

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Knowledge IS understanding.

Faith is assent (believing in, not just knowing) to true propositions about Christ revealed in Scripture - not some experiential relationship.
Posted 9/19/2009 9:06 PM by PhilosophyOfJoel - reply

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Quote: "This is an old argument, and the logic is flawed. Firstly because we are trying to fit something that Scripture calls "illumination" into a logic based model. What is enlightenment, illumination or insight? Can you define those without experience coming into play? If not, then can you claim them with relation to the reading of Scripture? If you cannot, you would simply be a "natural" man - the man of 1 Corinthians 1-2"

Wrong. The scriptures say that the word of God, which is the divine logic and wisdom(Joh 1:1), is the light to man, made in the image of God (v4). And his divine logic became flesh(v.9,14).

The life that was in the Logos, the creator, was the light of men and the light shines in the darkness. Verse 5 cannot refer to physical darkness. The remainder of the Gospel squarely opposes any such a literal view. The light is spiritual, and the darkness is also spiritual, rational, or intellectual.

Again with this understanding, the moral or spiritual darkness did not comprehend, understand or grasp it. Again, it refers to something intellectual. This logos, is only seen in men and not in animals. It clearly refers to rationality that is given to all men, and not something that is experienced by only some and not others. The KJV translates this very well from the greek. John 1:9-"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." So this true light, which we read earlier as the divine logos, enlightens every single person. Not experientially-some-men only, and not limited to those who are not "natural men of 1 Cor 1-2).

This light became flesh (v.9,14)

This refutes your experiential view of the light and establishes the historical understanding of the light being rationality made in the image of the divine rational logos. It is precisely because man is made in God's image as a rational divine being, that man can understand the relation of rationality to the reading of Scripture - the logical Word became flesh, and man being made in the image of this logical Word.


Quote: "Why did you not utilize this passage in the debate? It seems that this would have crossed your mind at some point."

Simply because your understanding of John 1:9 is totally wrong. It clearly demonstrates that this light is given to all men, not some. It therefore does not refer to salvation, or any sort of experiential feelings.

Quote: "What about Hebrews 6 and the definition of the person who has experienced the truth?"

As mentioned, in John 1, the divine logos which gives light, is not referring to those who are experience salvation, but it is something that enlightens every man. The enlightenment in John 1 is speaking about every man being made in the image of God as a rational-logical being - nothing to do with the "light of salvation". Hebrew 6 is totally irrelevant to the discussion here.

Quote: "The presence of the Holy Spirit in us dictates that there are deep things that we will never understand with our minds, even if stated clearly in Scripture."

The scriptures say that there are mysteries that are not revealed to some, but it does not say that we cannot understand anything revealed in scriptures, nor does it say that we cannot understand things that are deduced from the propositions found in scripture.

Quote: "That is why we need the mind of Christ, to be transformed through the renewing of our minds rather than the honing of our personal skills of deduction"

Of course we need the mind of Christ. For regeneration and sanctification is ultimately the renewal of our minds after the things of God. But this has no bearing on John 1, which is clearly not speaking about salvation, but about the divine logic, becoming flesh, and that all men are made as logical rational beings.

Quote: "Experience alone is neither good nor bad."

Experientialism proves nothing.

Quote: "So to say that experience somehow "trumps" Scripture is a false dichotomy"

Scripture trumps experience.

Quote: "Can Scripture be understood without experience? Again we are back to the Natural Man of 1 Corinthians to whom the things of the Spirit are foolishness. It is not that this person is somehow less intelligent, but they do not have the tools to interpret experience NOR Scripture."

Again, you seem to be confused on the "enlightenment" of John 1 and the "enlightenment" in other passages that speak of salvation. But lets move on to deal with the subject of the lack of rational thinking those that do not believe in Christ. Yes. Scripture can be understood apart from experience, by experience you are not refering to "intellectual transformation".

The unsaved person is able to interpret experience and scripture - he just will not believe it. He will not give assent to the propositions of scripture. He knows what is required of him in scripture and he rejects it. And the reason why he does not believe it, is because his understanding has been dimmed and blinded by the evil one. The reason why man must still remain as the image of God after his fall is that sinning presupposes rationality and voluntary decision. Animals cannot sin. Man can sin because man is responsible, and responsibility depends upon knowledge. Morality presupposes rationality. Clark writes, “Free will is not the basis of responsibility. In the first place, and at a more superficial level, the basis of responsibility is knowledge." In very much the same way, Adam's ability to understand the commandments of God (for he is a logical rational being) means that he is accountable for not giving assent to the propositions God commandment him to obey. Eve demonstrates this by doubting God and believing the Serpent. “It ought to be obvious that a blank mind cannot be an image of God. God is a God of knowledge and truth. His image must reflect that fact.” “Knowledge of God is also possible only because God has made man in his own image, so that there is a point of contact between the two despite the transcendence of God. Animals or inanimate objects cannot know God the way man can even if they are presented with his verbal revelation.” Regeneration and sanctification reverse the effect of sin upon the image of God and the believer is renewed in knowledge after the image of the creator

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Co 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
2Co 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
2Co 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
2Co 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
Eph 4:19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

The unbeliever is called a moron in scripture. (Romans 12:1 - Greek: moros, the root word for moron).

In Ps 73:22, the unbeliever, in his foolishness and ignorances, is called a brute beast.
Psa 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Unbelievers compared to the irrational beasts:

Jud 1:10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.

2Pe 2:12 These people are no better than senseless animals that live by their feelings and are born to be caught and killed. They speak evil of things they don't know anything about. But their own corrupt deeds will destroy them.

Scriptures do speak of non-believers as being illogical and intellectual and moral morons. (Not politically correct language in our day, but definitely biblical language)

Quote; "So, it is neither experience nor Scripture that are actually our connection to the truth, it is the Holy Spirit that renews, convicts, counsels, guides, reproves, etc. Scripture alone (the words without the Spirit) does not save and does not inspire, convict, or illumine."

Yes. It is the Holy Spirit that renews, convicts, councsels, guides, reproves, etc. But now does the Holy Spirit does this? He does this by renewing the mind of the elect believer so that believers now believes in the propositions in scripture. This new creation hungers for the Word and is renewed day by day into the image of God through the renewing of his mind. The removal of the veil that blinds the non-believers is a work of God and accomplished through the proclamation of the Word of God.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
Rom 11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."

A person who rejects the scripture cannot be saved.

Joh 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Quote: "Experiences do not dictate our understanding of life or Scripture alone, but experience ALONG WITH the leading of the Holy Spirit confirms truth or exposes error"

I've demonstrated that the work of the Holy Spirit involves renewing the mind of a believer and causing him to believe in the propositions of scripture. This may happen without any noticeable experiential event apart from the change in one's mind from one that opposes scripture, to one that give assents to the proposition of scriptures.

Quote: "Don't set these up as "either/or" type ides - experience and Scripture - Jesus never did"

Of course Jesus never did. Jesus never spoke about feeling God, but only about believing God. Don't set these up as "both/and" types - experience and leading of the Spirit".

Quote: "He said things like "you have heard it said, but I say to you" or "you have believed in the Father, now Believe in me" - which are directly linked to the experience of seeing, knowing and following Jesus.".

Jesus said things like "You have hear it said", to correct the traditional teachings of the religious teachers to redirect them to a correct interpretation of the Old Testament scripture. And where did he say "you have believed in the Father, now Believe in me"? Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" and "if you believe Moses, you would believe me. But if you do not believe his writings (OT scripture), how will you believe me?". This are direct commandments to believe in the scripture, not about experiencing Jesus relationally.

Experience is irrelevant. Whether it accompanies salvation or not, plays no role in the conversion of the individual.

Quote: "It is through experiences that we seek to connect the truth of Christ and the full testimony of Scripture to people who are trying, without the Spirit in them, to discern what is actually true."

Wrong. It is through the truth of scripture as revealed by the Spirit that we connect the truth and revelation of Christ - Not through man.

1 Cor 2:10 - these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

And contrary to what you said about those which the spirit who are trying to discern the truth, all unbelievers reject the truth when they are presented with it - none seek God.
Rom 3:11 - no one understands; no one seeks for God.

If they accept it, it is only because the Holy Spirit has already regenerate them and causes them to do so. All that the Spirit teaches, He will save.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Quote: "He say that experience denies this call"

The Scriptures warned about trusting our experiences rather than scripture. Both the true and false prophets perform signs and wonders, but it is belief and sanctification by the Spirit in truth that we are saved.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Quote: "If all your experiences of God's love were removed you may remain faithful to Scripture...but God never calls us to follow Him in a vacuum...we are to taste and see that He is good, ask, seek and knock - these seem to indicate very clearly that He alone wants to confirm all Truth experientially to we who already have faith"

No one denies that it is a good thing to experience God, but that experience is irrelevant to regeneration. One can certainly be saved without any experience. But a Christian who has already been saved, will experience the sanctifying work of the Spirit in the way God changes his life. It is not the same experience as someone who has a mystical sensation in church. That is not what it means to taste the Lord.

What does it mean to taste the lord? 1 peter 1:14-23

1Pe 2:2-3 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good. (NASB)

Vincent Cheung's commentary on First Peter explains well.

Cheung,
"When God saves a non-Christian, it is not like he is changing a pair of dirty socks for him. It is much more than that. It is as if he is turning a piece of dung into a handsome prince, or changing a dumb mule into a college professor. This is why we must recognize the full extent of the wicked and stupid nature of the unbelievers, and then affirm that Christians have been redeemed from this kind of life at great cost, even by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Only from this perspective do we then fully recognize the extent of the trouble that we were in, and the extent of the grace and power that rescued us out of it. Then, it is by standing upon this understanding of redemption that we can properly appreciate the admonition of Peter: "Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good." Because of where you were and where God has now taken you, the worst thing that you can do is to profess the faith and then fail to think and behave like a believer. Once you have started, you must go all the way. You must fully invest yourself into this new life. This is the way to not only survive but to thrive as a Christian in a world that is hostile to the things of God. Do not have a taste and then walk away. Now that you have tasted that the Lord is good, abide in him, and desire the spiritual milk of the word – pure and unadulterated biblical teaching – so that you may grow in the faith, become strong in your stand, and become useful for his kingdom. We find the same teaching in Paul. Like Peter, he first affirms that the non-Christians suffer from severe moral corruption and mental retardation, and that the Christians have been saved from this pitiful state. Then, from this he draws the conclusion that we must now put away the ignorance and the wickedness of the past, but move forward with Christ to grow in true knowledge and holiness. There is a full example of this line of thinking in Ephesians 4:17-25. Notice the close correspondence between this passage and what we have read from Peter: So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. Paul has the same low view of non-Christians. He offers an elaborate description of the unbelievers' moral and mental deficiencies. He says that their thinking is futile (v. 17), their understanding darkened (v. 18a), and that they are ignorant (v. 18b). Their hearts are hardened (v. 18b), so that they have lost all sensitivity, and they are given over to sensuality, indulgence, and lusts (v. 19). As Christians, once we were also like these people, but Christ has changed everything for us (v. 20-21). And on this basis, the apostle exhorts us to holy living, to put behind past transgressions and ignorance, and to move forward in our faith. This includes putting on a new mind and a new self (v. 23-24), and fully investing ourselves into building up the body of Christ (v. 25). We have devoted so much effort in considering Peter's low view of the unbelievers and his high view of grace, because it is only when we grasp what he is communicating here can our exposition reflect the pastoral wisdom exhibited in this letter. He is writing to Christians who would be facing various kinds of hardship and persecution. How is he preparing them? He is building his exhortations on a theology of salvation – of God's election, man's depravity, Christ's redemption, and the Spirit's power in regeneration and
sanctification. This is the general approach that we should follow to prepare ourselves, and if we are church leaders, to prepare our people for various attacks coming from the unbelievers. Sound theology is what prepares people for the various kinds of hardship and persecution that they will face." V.Cheung, Commentary on First Peter. p.65,66.


Quote: "Logic is God. Not a fair interpretation of the text I would say, and not a phrase many would want on their lips. It is logical that a strong man would kill a weaker man who was threatening his survival. That is logical. That is not God. God is Love. He has revealed Himself thus, and not as "logic" - I must believe that He has good reasons for that. I may also believe, logically, that if you are not God and you are presenting an argument that has little linguistic basis in 1st century Greek that you may be losing sight of a very important goal - to present His truth, not yours."

Very clear translation from the greek. In the beginning was the logic, and the logic was with God and the logic was God.
John 1:1 - ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

God has revealed Himself as Logic (John 1:1), in the same way He has revealed Himself as Love (1 John 4:8). by denying that God is logic, you deny the scripture. What is love? Love in scripture is a volition. Love, morality and relationality all presupposes the apriori foundation of rationality. A non-rational creation cannot love.

Your claim that "It is logical that a strong man would kill a weaker man who was threatening his survival" makes no sense. If God is the logic, and the absolute standard by which we measure logic, than by definition, whatever God commands is logical. And if whatever God commands is logical, and God commands us "not to murder", then to go against his will, by definition, is to be illogical.



-----------



"Saving faith is neither an indescribable encounter with a divine Person, nor heart knowledge as opposed to head knowledge". Gordon H. Clark, What is saving grace, p.13

"As for having a 'personal relationship' with Christ, if the phrase means something more than assenting to true propositions about Jesus, what is that something more? Feeling warm inside? Coffee has the same effect. Surely 'personal relationship' does not mean what we mean when we say that we know someone personally: perhaps we have shaken his hand... Read More, visited his home or he ours, or eaten with him. John had a 'personal relationship' with Christ in that sense, as did all the disciples, including Judas Iscariot. But millions of Christians have not, and Jesus called them blessed: They have not seen and yet have believed. The difference between Judas Iscariot and the other disciples is not that they had a 'personal relationship' with Jesus and he did not, but that they believed, that is, assented to, certain propositions about Jesus, while Judas did not believe those propositions. Belief of the Gospel, nothing more and nothing less, is what separates the saved from the damned." p.10

“The anti-intellectual cast of virtually all modern thought... Read More… it is this pious anti-intellectualism that emphasizes encounter rather than information, emotion instead of understanding, ‘personal relationship’ rather than knowledge. But Christians, Paul wrote, have the mind of Christ. Our relationship to him is intellectual. And since Christ is his mind and we are ours, no relationship could be more intimate than that. That is precisely why the Scriptures use the analogy of marriage to illustrate the intellectual relationship between Christians and Christ – and marriage is an inadequate illustration, for the penetration of minds is far more profound and intimate than marriage.” p.13
Posted 9/20/2009 12:24 AM by PhilosophyOfJoel - reply

Visit PhilosophyOfJoel's Xanga Site!
Excuse the grammatical typos. Did not check before posting.
Posted 9/20/2009 7:55 PM by PhilosophyOfJoel - reply


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